Voices Part 1
Robert Lawlor
Jay Weidner:
Don’t forget the School of Sacred Mysteries and all of Sacred Mysteries great videos and films. They can
all be found at www.sacredmysteries.com
Let's get right to business.
Tonight, it's my pleasure to introduce you to one of my very favorite people,
one of the smartest guys in the world. His name is Robert Lawlor.
Robert was one of the founding
members of Auroville, Sri Aurobindo's place in India. He wrote the book
"Sacred Geometry." He worked with Lucy Lamy who is the stepdaughter
of Schwaller de Lubicz, the great Egyptologist and learned a lot of the things
that Schwaller was trying to convey.
And then, translated
Schwaller's gigantic book, "The Temple of Man" series and of course,
he also wrote the great book about the Australian Aborigines, "Voices of
the First Day. Robert is in southern Australia, near Tasmania and he's been a
recluse for 20 years but he's coming out with a new book in 2010 and a new
video series from Sacred Mysteries called the "Sacred Geometry of
Time."
And, we're going to talk about that
subject in a later date when we get closer to publication of his material. So,
I want to just kind of get people introduced to Robert and his amazing scope of
ideas. One of the things you wanted to talk about was the paradox of within the
modern world of the people who think that the world is one reality.
Robert: Well, I
actually came across this idea in researching "The Cycles of Time,"
particularly the cycle in light of my next book, "The Yuga Cycle,"
it's the duration... a specific duration of time that according to the Yuga, a
whole, very precise influential force field that change or alter human
consciousness and the conditions and seduction of the civilization and human
culture.
And so, I got kind of
suspicious about the idea. Well, are these force fields inherent in the nature
of the time duration itself or are they appear to be some other force field
that time might hold or actually be in itself.
So, it thought into
cosmological question because all of our physics and all of our chemistry
basically our scientific outlets a neutral field of progressive and
combinations of units and it in itself holds no fields of creative formation or
forces that affect the creation and conception and this is completely opposite
to what the whole Yuga cycle is about.
So, I started researching this
problem or question and in it, I kind of thought the basic idea of paradox.
Now, I'll give you a little background. The oldest piece of it there is this
enormous paradox at the beginning of creation and in various forms this paradox
is depicted by the idea that at the beginning was this total unity and this
unity had a desire to reproduce itself in an infinite reproduction of itself.
And so, it achieves this goal,
by cutting or wounding itself so that in these philosophies, the beginning of
this universe that is, this sprawling universe and diversity that is before our
eyes is created by a clarification or self?wounding. So that's the very basic
of Egypt and India's philosophy which are ideas that I've been gathering much of
the information on my previous researches especially in the field of geometry.
Jay: So, this
wounding is really the beginning of the mythos that many religions are based on
and also, there's sort of a correlation between people who are great healers
and an early wounding.
So, there's this sort of
paradox even in the shamanic side of this exploration.
Robert: That's
right. And it's belongs to so many cultures who are involved in the rite of
sacrificing - including human sacrifice.
Jay: Right. So, we
fell in to time when we suffered this original wounding.
Robert: Yeah. We
fell into time and into a space that is cloven or segmented. Everything is part
of the cutting process, the wounding. There is no other space or time or syntax
in which our bodies and minds, have as a habitat, whether we are living or dead
tends to space created through this original severance or sacrifice that the
unified basic character of the beginning of the presence of the beginning.
Jay: Now, is this
similar to the Gnostic view that there was once one light that separated into
millions and trillions and quadrillions of little separate lights that are
trying to work their way back now to the main light.
Robert: Yeah.
Gnosticism was very onto this idea. This is the paradox that explains reality.
It is also the basic paradox that Gnosticism carries forward into the Western
world.
You're listening to the Smoke
and Mirrors Radio Hour, Monday through Friday, six o'clock Pacific Time.
[music]
And, we're back. Here we are on
the Smoke and Mirrors Radio Hour. My name is Jay Weidner and we're talking to
Robert Lawlor from all the way across the planet, in the Land of Oz.
Robert, you were talking about
the paradox. We are all and yet, we are separated and I was wondering... I
wanted you to get back to your point but I also wanted to kind of know how this
paradox is unfolding today in the modern world and what the evidence is for
its, you know, for... what's happening right now.
Robert: That's
good. I think I can answer that rather quickly. I wanted to go to G. Spencer
Brown reaction to the paradox basically, creation. He said that draw a
distinction, call the first distinction... call it the first distinction. Call
the space in which it is drawn, a space that is severed for cloven with distinction.
So, I realized that we who are
exist as the result of the cosmic paradigm the one that is all that is one, and
the severance in space into distinction. We tend to work constantly to overcome
or to invert this process that brought the universe into existence, bring back
an insight and create relationship [Inaudible 14:27] confrontation and contrast
of time and try to find similarities, which is actually the whole basis of our
language because it is the fact that these similarities and differences of the
basic, the symbolism and of naming.
So, our effort to reestablish
the actuality of oneness behind the great diversity and multiplicity is part of
what is the forces that are driving us towards to new goals such as one?world
government and one language and one God and not realizing that the
representation of multiplicity... of the oneness in... that multiplicity is the
whole sight of the universe and I think that helps, you know, the United
Nations has really very active goal of, we could say the illumined ones or
controllers of nations where one?world government is based on not understanding
the nature of this paradox between one and all, between unity and diversity.
Jay: Yeah, I think
you've nailed it. So, the more that they try to unify, the more that they're
actually going to cause it to become more fractious.
Robert: The
manifestation of an absolute unity is to withdraw the forces that are
sustaining.
Jay: I see. So...
Robert: The
Kabbalah has an interesting way of talking about the absolute unity. They call
it the invisible face of God and that fits. It is this actual face of God
cannot be seen as the all, it cannot be named. There is no aspect or creature
that is within the universal creation which is based on the severance because
nothing can distinguish itself from that absolute unity.
So, there was a very strong
move in the religious or spiritual basis of humanity to not to try to give a
name for this aspect of invisible faith, that is something that cannot be
distinguished and it cannot become a part of the distinguished faith,
distinguishment of faith and time.
However, then there are
entities like religion which claimed that they gave a specific name to the all
encompassing [Inaudible 18:32] and it is the denial of this original tenets,
and additional variance [Inaudible 18:46] understanding of the nature that is
being violated by religion who based themselves on a name or would testify ...
It is forgotten.
Jay: Wow, that is
extremely profound. So, it's that old kind of Taoist maxim that the more you
try to fix it, the more broken it gets and that's what they're trying to do
with all this unity.
We're going to take a break
here for the news. We'll be back. I'm Jay Weidner. You're listening to Smoke
and Mirrors Radio Hour every weeknight. Join us.
[music]
And, we're back. Smoke and
Mirrors Radio Hour. I'm Jay Weidner. We're talking to Robert Lawlor. We're
talking about the paradox. What we're talking about is the more that they try
to unify the world, the more we're going to become fractious, the more things
are going to fall apart. And, in fact, I can even think it may be even able...
Robert: ...Fear or
bring it back as inspiration.
Jay: I see. So,
the more that we unify, the more that we almost ensure our own disintegration.
In fact, maybe it's a symptom of disintegration to think that the sudden
yearning for unity is going to solve our problems.
Robert: Exactly.
That's how I thought this out eventually. It is this force in time that leads
to us towards the [Inaudible21:01] Now getting back to the absolute unity and
its message of reproducing itself. It chose two basic methods.
One is reflection and the other
is representation. So, reflection is an image but it's of the actuality, the
real presence but it is an inversion of it. A reflection contains only an
inversion.
And, the second one is
representation. Now a reflection is an image of the actuality or the real
present but it is a reversion of it. The second one was representation in that
it prevents itself in a form or media that is other than itself.
So, the entirety of that
natural and material construct is a reflection. It's only a reflection and a
representation and that reflection is an inversion of the actual presence of
all contained absolute unity.
So, that means that every
reality, whether... or every identity or distinguishment or individual contains
an integration of the opposite of everything that it appears to be. So, a thing
becomes a unit only in the integration of duality, of opposite. In other words,
[Inaudible 23:22] inhabit non?existent, manifest, non?manifest theme of
becoming eternity in time creator of cosmos.
They are all an integrated
[Inaudible 23:36]. So, this is the basic, for me, of what you call Gnosticism
and that belief system has been name, I think it was on the 17th Century by
philosophers that as cosmothesism not monothesism.
Jay: Yeah, I think
it's... So, there is a... As we go through the Yuga system, through the Hindu
Yuga system and we get to the close of the Kali Yuga which is where we are now,
we're in a state of high disintegration.
And, in that state of high
disintegration, we're trying to find some kind of unity that we think will hold
it together but in fact, that is...
Robert: We're
trying to create an opposition to it, to the actuality and that opposition
we're taking apart... instead of it being the disintegrating we're taking apart
the differentiation, the variety... the variation, the specificity. And trying
to meld those all into one, one government and one?world order and so...
Jay: And, one way
of thinking.
Robert: There's an
actuality [Inaudible 25:47] from the confusion between distinguishment and
disintegration and it's that misunderstanding that is basic to our politics of
today.
Jay: And,
really... And really, also, it's a tragedy in front of our eyes because we're
losing all of the things that really made us special in the hopes of some vain
idea that it's going to unify all of us. In fact, we're just going to end up
with one homogenous thing that isn't going to be very interesting at all
actually.
Robert: That's
right. And, there's, you know, by the hour Vishnu and therefore, various
variety, the aspect of one's absolute, unified consciousness and way of being.
So, we strive towards unification which we think to be our salvation, it's
really part of the keeping and keeping movement toward a finality that's
dictated by time.
Jay: Wow, that
says it all right there. I couldn't agree more and removing in to these, what I
call the concentration of time where time is actually beginning to fold over on
itself and minutes are becoming shorter than they were and hours are becoming
shorter than they were and we're moving to a place where we could get cascading
criseses going, where they could go out of control like a freight train going
down on mountainside.
Anyway, you're listening to
Smoke and Mirrors. I'm Jay Weidner talking to Robert Lawlor. We'll be back in
just a couple of minutes.
[music]
And, this is Smoke and Mirrors.
I'm Jay Weidner. We're talking to Robert Lawlor. You know, this Yuga cycle
thing is something that I'm going to... becoming to a lot on this show and
what's important about understanding the Yuga cycles is that changes your view
of reality.
And, here on the West, we've
been... had it beaten in to our heads that, you know, we were apes and we
evolved and we turned into humans and every minute we're getting better and
better and everything is always getting better and better.
But, you know, in reality,
things aren't getting better and better, they're getting worse and worse. And,
this is a variant with the whole theory of evolution. So, you go out and you
try to find out why and we find the Yuga system which basically says that
things wind down.
And then, there's a sudden
shift where things are taken back up to the top, in the so?called Golden Age
and then things began to wind down again. And, when you get to be old enough
like I am, you begin to realize that makes a lot more sense than the theory of
evolution.
Not that there are things in
the theory of evolution that are right, that are scientifically provable.
That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying is that overriding concept that we're
getting better and somehow we're evolving in getting smarter and faster by the
moment is just not true.
And so, I think it's just
really important that you understand that. When Robert says that the Yuga
system, you know, from India is saying that we're now in the twilight or near
the end of the Kali Yuga, I think the evidence is all around us, from the
decimation of species to the fishing out of the oceans, the loss of topsoil,
the deforestation of the entire northern hemisphere and a lot of other things.
Robert, I want to get back to
the paradox here. But, the other day, we were talking and you told me something
very interesting. I think America should hear it. I asked you about the... in
Australia, the news broadcast of the protest against Obama were being shown and
you told me that basically, they were saying a whole bunch of racists were
marching or something like that. Is that right?
Robert: No, they
had on the Australian news an interview with Jimmy Carter who said that the
difficulties that Obama is having with his policies, particularly concerning
the health program are really, they are just people who are anti?racists.
Jay: Right and...
Robert: He
perverted it into a racist quality. He said, I'm from South, he said, I know
how these people are and he said, he's just reluctant to accept the policies of
Obama are really racist driven.
I think that it's really a
dangerous time to be promoting racism to that extent. Not being in America, I
just doubt the validity of that. I think that the paradoxical understanding,
that it is the disorientation and variety among all the species and the
creations of the world that are pleasing to the unity [Inaudible 32:58] and
this is really an exploration of the inner potential, creative potentiality of
an absolute one.
But, I wanted to go next to
what is, I think, is a very important aspect of our thinking and also a mistake
as our comprehension which is due to the twilight circumstances and lack of
illumination in our thought. That is the fact that once we understand that the
universe is only a reflection and representation of the actual reality behind
creative [Inaudible 33:59].
And then, we have moved to
mistakes that reflection for that reality and that reality is an all
encompassing complete and total full consciousness and that's what the unity is
and [Inaudible 34:26] wrote a poem about this that makes the whole problem very
real and very associated because, you know, actually when we approach a mirror
we go through the same thing we almost forget that the presence of our
actuality and, we take on and project the reality into our reflection.
And as we scrub and shave and
pinch and pluck and so on, we really think that this whole activity is
occurring with the reflection and the reflection has a powerful way of pulling
our sense of the real into what it is not. It's a reflection of the real.
If we have enough time, I would
like to read this poem. Because it's a very way of stating this paradox of
accepting the reflection, which is a inversion of reality.
Jay: Please, go
ahead.
Robert: How are we
doing on time, Jay?
Jay: We're doing
fine. Go ahead, Robert.
Robert: OK. The
poem begins, while he stops to quench his thirst, another thirst grew in him
and as he drank, he was enchanted by this beautiful reflection that he saw.
And, remember the first reflective surface, the first mirror was the surface of
still water.
He fell in love with an
insubstantial hope, mistaking a mere shadow for a real body. Spellbound by his
own self, he remained there motionless and sick for over [Inaudible 36:36]
admiring all the features for which he was himself admired and unwittingly
desired he himself and wants himself the object of his own approval and desire.
I'm speaking in thoughts and self kindling the flame within which you
[Inaudible 37:08] that alludes you.
The thing you are seeing does
not exist. Only turn aside and you will view what you want. What you see is but
a shadow cast by your reflection. In itself, it is nothing. It comes with you.
It last while you are there. It will go when you go. [Inaudible 37:35].
This is the sort of hypnotic,
magnetism of the mirror image over the reality and we are an aspect of this
imaging, per se. The whole of the natural world and the nature of the universe
is simply only the reflection of something that's really is an fundamental
nature, absolute consciousness of we've become magnetized, hypnotized by this
illusion of the material in physical world, being the basis of reality and this
being the basic mistake of what we called physical science and material
philosophy out of what you were just talking about, Darwin. Darwinism is the
result of that.
Jay: Yes, that's
right and even if Darwinism was true, it probably shouldn't be discussed in the
open because it tends to denigrate the human condition within the spirit of the
human being who's hearing the information. And generally, it's the root of
political Fascism and communism and the Nazism and all of this "isms"
came out of Darwinism which gained racism a scientific reason to be and you
know, I can't overemphasize, you know, the damage that that theory has done to
the world.
Robert: ... you
know, he said that... I don't have the exact phrase in front of me but he said
after his travels and encountering the indigenous people and how they
distinguished themselves through self?decoration. He said, I'd rather be a
descendant of an ape or a chimpanzee than be the descendants of these people.
Jay: Yup.
Robert: I mean
this whole thing was white, Anglo?Saxon racist thought and it is elitist.
[music]
Robert: Survival
of the fittest that's the elite [Inaudible 40:59] or maintain their superiority
and their survival.
Jay: And the
richest. And, with that, that will be the end of our first show here on Smoke
and Mirrors. That was Robert Lawlor giving us his opinion of Darwinism and my
name is Jay Weidner.
I will be here tomorrow night
which John Major Jenkins. Got a great show coming up every night, Monday
through Friday, six to seven PM Pacific, nine to 10 PM on the East Coast, all
over the world on the Internet, on the Global Star satellite. Come tomorrow
night, listen. Thanks. Good night, Robert.
Transcription
by CastingWords